#61 Inside Ballard Global’s Private Credit Investing Strategy

AIME Episode 61 Transcript

Sarah Florer (00:08.583)
Welcome everyone to Alt Investing Made Easy. Thank you for joining us today. Today we're very excited to have the opportunity to speak to Mike Barker and Rick Parmiter from Ballard Global. They're going to tell us about their business and also their journeys to being involved with that business and we're looking forward to a great interview today. Thanks for joining us.

Roland Wiederaenders (00:08.677)
See you then.

Mike Barker (00:20.085)
Thank you.

Rick Parmiter (00:32.046)
Yes

Roland Wiederaenders (00:33.723)
Well, Rick and Mike, it's great to be here with you both today. Ballard Global's got a great story and we want you all to tell it. And we didn't talk ahead of time, but Rick or Mike, which one of you would like to start to tell us about Ballard Global?

Rick Parmiter (00:52.256)
Mike, why don't you kick us off here?

Mike Barker (00:53.781)
Sure, thanks again for having us. Delighted to be here. Ballard Global was really started by a close friend of ours, Jeff Ballard, in the early 90s. And actually precursor to Ballard Global, he actually started as a luxury real estate developer in Austin, Texas. And after several successful years, what happened was he was in the middle of some

projects and when 9-eleven happened his bank at the time froze assets on his construction loans and he needed to like raise capital quickly to get those projects finished on time pay subs etc and Long story short he reached out to friends and family and he raised about 800,000 finished his projects on time and when he went to go give everybody their money back plus a little sweetener

They all looked at what they made on that little investment compared to the rest of their portfolio and said, can we keep this going? And so that kind of became the light bulb moment for Jeff. I can use and borrow other people's capital instead of just using banks and fast forward the tape, was really successful for several more years. And then when 2008 happened and we all know what happened to the housing market,

Sarah Florer (02:01.523)
Mm.

Mike Barker (02:22.675)
He decided I should diversify. always having a dream of owning a ranch someday, he actually bought a 80 acres gentlemen ranch, five cows and a bull and grew that business, that operation to nearly 200,000 acres, over 11,000 head of cattle and in its prime became one of the largest exporters of beef to Panama.

Sarah Florer (02:34.995)
Ha

Mike Barker (02:50.567)
And so that became a whole other sector where he could put capital to work. Fast forward the tape a little bit more. Jeff always had an interest in lending and started attending a lot of lending conferences, looking to make connections. He actually vetted several portfolios, debt that he could buy. But they ended up being, long story short again, payday lending and

Nobody wants anything to do with payday lending. At least he doesn't. That goes against his kind of morals, if you will, and values. But he did meet someone and they together were able to purchase a pretty small book of business when Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Deutsche Bank, when they got out of the providing signature loans to their investor, excuse me, to their customers.

Sarah Florer (03:47.635)
Hmm.

Mike Barker (03:48.617)
they had an opportunity to purchase that debt. It was about 2011, and that was a $5 million-ish investment, allowing them to market to their customers, saying, your bank no longer provides this service. We're here to fill that need moving forward. And so to date, that book of business now has grown and developed into six different regions.

Tens and tens and tens of thousands of small loans. It's projected to be by the end of the year very close from 5 million to 400 million with a roadmap that hopefully will be at a billion dollars by 2033 is the goal. And so that's our third sector that we put capital to work in the lending space. And the fourth is about four and a half years ago.

Jeff purchased a significant shares in an AI company that writes custom enterprise applications for the healthcare industry and the insurance industry. And so that's our latest partnership. And so what Ballard Global ultimately does is we put capital to work in these four sectors with these four partnerships and provide some attractive fixed rates of returns back to our investors.

Sarah Florer (05:15.633)
I think there's a bit more to the story than those attractive fixed rate of returns. I don't know if you want to address that Mike or Rick, if that's going to be part of when you take your turn to talk about Ballard. But you guys do have some unique things. You've been very successful, is what I would say. And by defining success, not excessive, I would say, but consistent.

Rick Parmiter (05:39.512)
Yeah, I think one of the things that we're most proud of is that in our 24-year history, we've never lost investor capital. So we've been able to provide some very consistent, stable returns for our investors over time across those four partnerships. And I think one of the reasons why we can do that is because a lot of the private equity-type investments, real estate, multifamily opportunities,

you know, the companies that are similar to ours, they spend a good portion of their time looking for that next new deal. And everything that we do is with these four partnerships where we have deep expertise and long relationships. And before we even provide exposure to investors, we, you know, we've vetted them out. We know exactly how those investments are going to perform. And over time, we've shifted away from

Mike Barker (06:16.053)
Mm.

Rick Parmiter (06:36.863)
an equity type model to a debt model where we're really, it's a private credit play for the investor that allows us to provide the things that are important to them like capital preservation and protection, a fixed rate of return, the ability to move away from market volatility and go into something that gives them some stability and in certain years outperforms the public markets.

Mike Barker (06:43.701)
All right.

Sarah Florer (06:56.979)
Hmm.

Rick Parmiter (07:06.317)
Those are some things that I think are kind of unique in our situation that have led us to a lot of success.

Roland Wiederaenders (07:17.379)
Tell us a little bit about the investment opportunities specifically. You just mentioned a fixed rate of return, it sounds like. What are some things that people can invest in through Ballard Global right now?

Mike Barker (07:19.573)
you

Rick Parmiter (07:36.28)
Sure, as an example, our flagship fund right now is called the Ballard Global Flex Fund. And I think it's a pretty unique offering. What we did is we talked to a lot of investors and asked them, what is it you're looking for in investment? What problem are you trying to solve? Where's the hole in your portfolio? And we got a wide range of answers. Some people, especially those who are young in their career, or they're just

starting out in their investment journey. You know, they're looking to maximize capital growth over a long period of time and you know, have some tax deferral. They're already high income earners. So they're, you know, they're wanting their investments to grow without any tax implications from distributions or things like that. So that would be one segment. The second segment is, you know, people who maybe are invested heavily in public markets or they...

are familiar with real estate and have done a lot of real estate investing in the past, but they're looking for some diversification. They want to fortify their portfolio with some additional sectors. And then the third thing is a group of people who are maybe at or near retirement who are looking for a stable, consistent income stream. And so with the Flex Fund, what we did is we combined essentially 27 different sleeves to provide

a lot of flexibility for the investor to choose their term from one to seven years, the distribution frequency they have. And so the Flexman is diversified across all four of the entities that we participate in. It gives the investor the ability to invest from one to seven years. And it also provides them with

distribution frequency options of monthly, quarterly, annually, or a compound reinvestment. So wherever they are in either of those three buckets that I mentioned, they can choose the one that's right for them. so, you know, particularly when you have somebody that's well into retirement, you know, they are often concerned about locking up money for a long period of time. They want some stability, they want some consistency, they want some income. And so they could come into the Flex Fund, you know, for one or two year.

Rick Parmiter (09:53.08)
term and still get a nice rate of return. The base rates on the FlexOne range from 9.5 % to 13 % based upon the term. obviously, there's an illiquidity premium there if you go with a longer term. But because it has these 27 different categories, they can really choose the one that's exactly right for their needs at that particular time.

Roland Wiederaenders (10:19.151)
And hey, Sarah, think one thing that we should do is place Ballard Global and these investment opportunities and just confirm these are private offerings of securities for accredited investors only under 506C.

Mike Barker (10:19.471)
Hmm.

Rick Parmiter (10:35.693)
That's correct, yes. Reg D, 506C, accredited investors. so we work with lots of people, particularly in health care, doctors, dentists. Lots of our investors fall into that demographic. But we've got lots of people in the field of activities, tech, entrepreneurs, a wide range.

Sarah Florer (10:36.71)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Florer (10:47.816)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Florer (10:57.852)
Mm-hmm.

You know, it's interesting. just saw an article yesterday that said something to the effect of how many trillions of dollars will be invested in alternative assets in the coming decade? think it is many, many trillions. And it seems that with your business having been in what we call alternative investing, is private investing, established players like yourselves are, I mean, I'm sure well aware of this coming up.

Roland Wiederaenders (11:15.045)
Yeah.

Sarah Florer (11:29.233)
really well positioned with your track record.

Rick Parmiter (11:33.152)
Yeah, I think one of the exciting things that I've heard talk about, read some articles on is, you know, the potential for opening up 401ks to being able to invest in alternative to private investments. And I think that certainly would release a lot of the trillions of dollars that you're talking about that's out there that only sit in the public market today. And it will give some investors a broader range of options and really allow them to invest more like a professional investor.

Mike Barker (11:44.031)
Yeah.

Sarah Florer (11:51.475)
Mm.

Sarah Florer (12:02.486)
Yeah, exactly.

Mike Barker (12:04.041)
You know, and to your point, know, private credit, it hasn't been something that's known. I mean, it's been around for a long time, but it's really just been in recent years that the spotlight has shifted and is beginning to shine on private credit like never before. know, Jeff is just wise enough or saw, you know, the future, if you will, and started doing private credit 13 years ago before it was before it was cool. And so we feel really

Sarah Florer (12:10.802)
Yeah.

Sarah Florer (12:20.658)
Yeah.

Sarah Florer (12:25.969)
Hmm.

Sarah Florer (12:32.7)
Well, why don't you actually, why don't you do, what is private credit like? I think that's a great point and maybe just set out a definition for what that is just for our audience.

Mike Barker (12:43.061)
Yeah, sure. mean, simply most people are familiar with private equity, right? So, you know, purchase shares of a company or venture capitalists and hope it does really well. And depending upon how that company performs and shares your own determines, you know, you know how well you did. Private credit is similar, but it's a little bit different. In our case, you know, I mentioned those four sectors that we're in. Those are four different partnerships, real estate, agribusiness, consumer lending.

Sarah Florer (12:47.57)
Right.

Sarah Florer (12:57.063)
Hmm.

Mike Barker (13:13.269)
and AI technology. Those are well-established companies that do very well. And we simply, as a private credit company, we pool investor capital together and we lend it ultimately to those partnerships. So it's not high risk. It's growing companies. that Ballard, in this case, where Ballard Global simply has a senior secured position.

Sarah Florer (13:29.074)
Mm.

Sarah Florer (13:35.123)
Very predictable.

Sarah Florer (13:42.867)
Hmm.

Mike Barker (13:42.879)
or senior position in those companies. And so it allows us to place investor capital alongside our capital, put them in a debt position. And then that's what allows fixed rates of returns, credit, they're paying a fixed rate of return back to our funds, our investors. So ultimately, how the underlying asset perform isn't as relevant as just the contractual obligation.

Sarah Florer (13:54.291)
Hmm.

Mike Barker (14:11.529)
that we have to pay investors back those rates of returns.

Roland Wiederaenders (14:15.225)
And that's those different sleeves, The 27 sleeves that you have. And so really, it's just I pick my note terms. I mean, you're issuing debt instrument versus another way that we could think about it is a redeemable preferred equity, you know, that I could redeem you out at any time after three years, provided I give you a 20 % IRR. But this is really, it's a debt.

Rick Parmiter (14:15.744)
think that is.

Sarah Florer (14:27.985)
Yeah.

Roland Wiederaenders (14:43.053)
it's a debt that you're issuing to the investors. And so it's important to understand that where it sits in the capital stack for sure and how much, you know, and an investor then can look at the balance sheet of the fund and, know, what are the underlying businesses, I'm sure. Do you give transparency to the underlying, the four partnerships?

Mike Barker (14:51.199)
Yeah, rise on top.

Rick Parmiter (15:05.389)
Probably less so than you would see in a typical private...

or a private equity investment where you're being able to take a look at the, know, if you're going to go into an opportunity that was in a multifamily real estate deal, you're getting a lot of the underlying financial information. And mostly we don't provide that. And that is one of the natures of some of the private debt situations where you have a company like the AI Tech Company as an example where

In some of their markets, they have first mover advantage where they don't want to expose a lot of the proprietary information and the underlying workings of the business just from a competitive standpoint.

And I think the, know, when we're talking about private credit, one of the important things to note is that a lot of companies, and I was just having a discussion with Jeff today about the capital needs for the AI company for next year. you know, companies in that position, they can really pursue a couple paths. They can pursue, you know, looking for that IPO exit. And, you know, that might be a goal.

But if you look at the numbers, there are fewer and fewer IPOs as compared to, 10 years ago. And part of the reason for that is because in the long run, it costs a lot less to raise capital through debt, even at a higher rate of interest, than giving up an equity stake in your company. And so we've got some exciting things coming up with the AI company that are going to allow investors

Sarah Florer (16:42.237)
Mm-hmm.

Rick Parmiter (16:50.86)
participate a little bit on both sides of the equation, both the debt and the equity position. thinking about private credit is why it's so important, is because it gives that funding arm to an up and coming company or an existing company without having to give up that equity piece.

Sarah Florer (17:08.633)
I think there's another point here that's interesting, Rick, that you touched on, and that is that in your role as Ballard Global, raising these funds for investors to join into, part of your role is to be the people who do know a bit more level of detail of the underlying performance of the assets, whether it's equity stakes or debt that's being used as the structure.

And we've talked about it a lot, haven't we, Roland, that in these private markets, trust and let's say with authenticity, like we were talking about before, trust, authenticity and track record are so important. And I think what struck me when we first got to speak to you before we planned the interview is immediately you were very clear speaking and you have this long track record. And it's really an ideal combination of an example to me of what

Mike Barker (17:51.69)
Bye.

Sarah Florer (18:06.237)
good looks like in the alternative investment space. And you're up at a scale which means that you have probably investments to offer to a lot more people, which is also quite exciting because sometimes deals are really small and you kind of have to be in the know. And if you're lucky to have a friend who got you into a deal or something, this is kind of how private markets work, right? A lot of who you know and word of mouth and that's fine. But I do, this is something that I noticed and I think it's important to highlight here is that

Having a manager in the middle of this who is trustworthy and has a track record or proven consistency is really one of the most fundamental risks to mitigate when you put your money into private markets.

Mike Barker (18:49.375)
Well said.

Rick Parmiter (18:49.386)
Yeah, I appreciate the kind words. I'll tell you that maybe the top value that we live by and we say a lot around here is do what you say you're going to do. And so that drives a lot of the behaviors and the way that we approach the market. When we tell an investor that this is what's going to happen, then that is our primary.

Sarah Florer (19:01.554)
Hmm.

Rick Parmiter (19:17.608)
our prime directive, if you will, that we are making sure that we're going to fulfill on that obligation.

Sarah Florer (19:19.475)
Hmm.

Sarah Florer (19:24.113)
Yeah, that's, I mean, think it's, we talk about it all the time, don't we, Roland?

Roland Wiederaenders (19:29.691)
Oh yeah, for sure. you know, it's just, it's the importance of the management. Management can make a great deal or a mediocre deal great, but a great deal can be destroyed by a poor manager. So that's just a recurring theme in what we've talked about here. Well, shoot, it's coming up on 20 minutes, Sarah, you know, with the goal of trying to keep these a little shorter. Maybe we can get into the question that you were talking about before.

Mike Barker (19:43.295)
Thank

Roland Wiederaenders (19:59.28)
You know, really, we're in the business of trust production here. We want people to trust us as attorneys, as investment professionals. And so we really want to get to know our guests more. Rick and Mike, you know, we're all motivated by different things, but sir, I'll let you ask the question.

Sarah Florer (20:18.099)
It's always to me. Well, we all have different things that motivate us. So we're always interested to hear from each of you, as personal as you're willing to go, what is it that motivates you to work in this profession, this industry, and what is it that keeps you going on a daily basis, if you have any words of wisdom to offer?

Mike Barker (20:19.911)
Okay. you

You want to go first Rick?

Rick Parmiter (20:42.88)
Go ahead.

Mike's really got a great, he's been with Jeff and has known Jeff much longer than I have. And they've got a history that goes well beyond just working together at Malware Global. And so I think Mike can tell you a great story about trust and how that relationship formed and kind of set the stage for where we are today.

Sarah Florer (20:53.437)
Hmm.

Mike Barker (21:10.985)
Yeah, my story is a little bit different. I mean, I've known Jeff, you know, when he started that luxury real estate development company, you know, many, moons ago. And I kind of came into this industry through the side door, you know, through relationship with Jeff. was actually a pastor for over 20 years and started a church in Austin, Texas. And I was working at a self-directed IRA company and Jeff came in and had a meeting with the owner of that company. And that's how I met Jeff.

Sarah Florer (21:17.586)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Florer (21:26.298)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Barker (21:40.469)
you when you're starting a church, you invite anyone and everyone to church. And I invited Jeff, he actually showed up and, you know, we became fast friends. Fast forward the tape, you know, a lot of years later, and I had moved to Seattle, to the Seattle area. Jeff was having some challenges that I was able to meet. You know, I mentioned that cow calf operation that he started. Well, when he was selling all this beef to Panama, they only wanted certain cuts. And as a result,

every month. He had hundreds of thousands of pounds of beef left over. What do I do with this? No sales team or anything. Long story short, I got on LinkedIn and made some connections and introduced them to restaurant chains and grocery chains and helped them set tight appointments for him to unload that beef solution into the future. He said, got to come work for me. So I ended up

moving out of sales or actually, you know, from pastoring and that was doing some sales at the time. That's what got me here. What motivates me here is everything they do is filtered through my, my desire to, to, to care for people as a pastor. And I'm not pastoring today, but I still carry that call, if you will, or that, you know, that desire just to help people. So, you know, when I get to work with people that,

Sarah Florer (22:56.125)
Hmm.

Mike Barker (23:07.421)
have a problem with their finances, that they're trying to solve something or life changes and now all of a sudden this strategy doesn't work. Well, I believe we probably have a strategy that will really help them out. And so I take great delight and it's incredibly satisfying to help people hit those financial objectives or goals, especially in their latter years when things can really change.

Sarah Florer (23:32.627)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's wonderful. Right. Mike has a good story, but love to hear from you if you want to say anything.

Rick Parmiter (23:42.829)
Yeah, you know I spent most of my career in tech not in finance. You know, I was a VP of sales and marketing for a tech company out of Seattle for many many years and You know like Jeff meeting Mike I met Mike through our church he was the pastor at the church my wife and my family were was going to in Washington and You know as Mike was transitioning from

being a pastor into sales, I helped him through that transition and worked with him on that. And eventually he came back around to working with Jeff. the timing was good because Jeff had reached a place where he had more capital requirements from the underlying entities than he could fulfill.

And so he was looking to scale and move to that next level. you know, Mike made the introduction and said, told Jeff, you know, this is the guy that you might want to talk to about making that next move. so, you know, I flew down to Austin to meet with Jeff and, you know, we talked for a few months and when the timing was right, you know, we got together and I moved to Austin and, you know, started working with Jeff to

see what we could do to take Ballot Global to that next level. And we talk a lot about in this world about values-based investing. What we don't talk a lot about is values-based operations. And so what I tried to bring to the table is values-based operations, where we're operating within a framework of values that drive the business day-to-day activity and allow us to

Mike Barker (25:24.917)
Mm.

Rick Parmiter (25:40.065)
go back to do what you say you're going to do and live within that mantra. So my story is really just I've worked a lot in a front facing or customer or investor facing activities. so that's kind what I bring to the table is trying to advance the get Ballard Global, help us get to that next level and reach the scale where we can.

raise the capital that we need to fund these operations and help them to flourish.

Sarah Florer (26:14.739)
I really like that value-based operations. It essentially speaks to integrity and what you do operationally. I think that's something that lots of people seek in their work because our working lives are a huge part of our lives. More and more in families, both parents are working and need to be working. And when you work for a values-based organization that

Mike Barker (26:29.333)
Yeah.

Sarah Florer (26:42.725)
also supports that kind of a model. It's also good. so I think it's something that perhaps is a really maybe overlooked value, especially when you start talking about the finance industry or investing or all these things that touch on historically what people thought that meant. What I find interesting about doing these, getting to know you and others in the process of interviewing is there are very many people who have

Mike Barker (26:46.769)
you

you

Sarah Florer (27:12.723)
a values-based approach to their work, vis-a-vis, investing vis-a-vis. And there might be different values underneath it. I'm not speaking to religion or anything like this, but there's something that's maybe even more fundamental in the sense of what you're saying, do what you say you're going to do. Consistency maybe isn't something that you articulated to us, but it's clear that that's a huge value of your organization.

Mike Barker (27:36.021)
you

Rick Parmiter (27:40.757)
Absolutely. Yeah, you know, it's pretty easy to find investments that

Sarah Florer (27:41.529)
you know, and

Rick Parmiter (27:46.483)
know, seem to be aligned with your values. one of the, you when we're talking about, you know, trust of the GP and, you know, the organization or the manager that you're investing in, I think it gives, it's given less consideration than maybe it should where, you know, if you want to find true alignment, the alignment is finding an organization that aligns with the values that you have as an investor, not just the underlying investment.

Mike Barker (27:58.101)
Thank

Sarah Florer (28:00.402)
Hmm.

Mike Barker (28:02.645)
you

Sarah Florer (28:08.861)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, exactly.

Mike Barker (28:13.289)
Yeah, my favorite, some of my favorite days around here. mean, you know, Rick is the managing director, you know, often, oftentimes I'll see him be that plumb line. And when people come into funds that, you know, you position your funds to do certain things. if operations on the other end, as they help deliver on those, if maybe there was miscommunication or assumptions or uncertainty, if they go a direction, that's not what we said it would be.

Sarah Florer (28:27.911)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Barker (28:41.875)
watching Rick go under the operations side and make things right is amazing. so it provides a lot of confidence for us as we introduce potential investors into opportunities, knowing that we have a team that's committed to getting it right. Rick's, what he's saying is just how he lives and that's our culture.

Sarah Florer (28:56.125)
Mm-hmm.

Sarah Florer (29:07.099)
Yeah, well, sorry.

Roland Wiederaenders (29:07.599)
Well, it's a great story about the personal relationship. Sorry, Sarah, were you going to say something? No, I was just going to say, you know, it just would engender investor trust, I think, because it's clear that you all have a long term history together and you're real intentional about how you're putting together operations and structuring things for your investors and thinking about business overall. So I think it's a great story.

Sarah Florer (29:12.731)
No, go ahead. No, no, no.

Sarah Florer (29:32.401)
Yeah, no, it's wonderful. So I think, Roland, were you about to say your part? Sorry, I didn't mean to jump in. He and I have kind of a... We've done this a while now. No, it's your turn.

Rick Parmiter (29:33.388)
Thank you. Thank you.

Mike Barker (29:34.355)
Yeah, thank you.

Roland Wiederaenders (29:37.967)
Yeah, yeah, no, no. Yeah, I mean, we, yeah, no, go ahead, sir.

Mike Barker (29:39.733)
So you

Roland Wiederaenders (29:47.728)
Well, no, I was just going to say, I think it's probably a good place for us to wind things up. We're at 30 minutes now. We try to be respectful of our audience, but maybe tell us. Ballard Global has got a website, of course, and any specific contact information that you'd want to give us, you know, we can for sure include in our show notes. Or if you want to say anything specifically, direct people's attention to something specifically now, please go ahead.

Rick Parmiter (30:16.332)
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. Our website is ballerglobal.com and it provides a lot of information about our firm as well as the investment offerings that we have. We really enjoy interacting with people and so to the degree that we can, we're not trying to move people through a...

funnel of some sort online where they don't ever talk to a person. I think it's important to note too, this is just in a little addition, sorry if I'm dragging it out longer than you want, but our process is very hands on. Mike talks or reaches out and communicates with his investors once every 45 days or so, just checking in and making sure that they're.

Mike Barker (30:45.375)
Yeah.

Sarah Florer (30:49.456)
No, no, take your time.

Roland Wiederaenders (30:50.019)
No, that's fine.

Mike Barker (30:54.901)
Yeah.

Sarah Florer (31:04.275)
Hmm.

Rick Parmiter (31:07.276)
You know feeling good and and understand what new things are coming up and but there's a there's there's a we've built a community You know, we we typically have one to two investor meetings a year where we will actually invite all of our investors to get in a room together and you know, just Give some information and here's the new things that are coming. But one of the thing I think that's a little bit unique is that

we put them all in the same room together. So, most people don't like to do that because if somebody's unhappy, it might affect the rest of the people around. But we want it to be a transparent community type investment group where people can talk about other investments they have. They can ask us questions. Why are we doing it this way? Why aren't we doing that? Are we pursuing other?

Mike Barker (31:38.325)
you

Rick Parmiter (32:04.645)
avenues, all of these things. And Jeff and I will stand up in front of the room and take questions at the end. And it's open free for all where anybody can ask whatever they want. So while I love directing people to the website, there's people here that love to interact with other people. so feel free to call in on our main line. People can ask for me. They can ask for Mike. We're happy to talk to anybody.

Sarah Florer (32:12.787)
Hmm.

Sarah Florer (32:32.922)
That's cool. That's great to know.

Mike Barker (32:34.367)
Yeah, Rick said what I would say. a quick example, my morning started out great. One of my investors in the small town of the Bryan College Station area in Texas called me and invited me to his birthday party that he's having an older retired guy a week from Friday. And though I'm not going to be able to be there from Miami from here, mean, just that he would call me and invite me and feels like,

Sarah Florer (32:56.499)
Okay.

Mike Barker (33:04.511)
that we're that close, even though we're a lot of miles apart. And I don't get to be there, but the first thing I did is I called my wife Stacey and said, I'd like to go buy Rudy a birthday card and a gift, and let's make sure we get that to him. And that speaks to, I think, the personal touch that Rick talks about. He called my cell phone and did that. And we're grateful to have those kind of relationships. They mean something.

Sarah Florer (33:05.658)
Yeah.

Sarah Florer (33:24.883)
I understand. We sometimes get to have that as attorneys also and I really, really value that because ultimately if you're a person who wants to be trusted and trustworthy, it's an ultimate confirmation really when somebody asks you to do something personal, meet their family, that kind of thing. understand. Well, think, Roland, you want to go ahead?

Mike Barker (33:44.009)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Rick Parmiter (33:44.839)
Exactly, exactly.

Roland Wiederaenders (33:51.439)
Yeah, I think that's a good stopping point, think. Sarah, what do you think?

Mike Barker (33:53.319)
you

Sarah Florer (33:55.631)
Yeah, thank you both so much for being here. I really just genuinely have enjoyed the time we've had to speak together and also knowing about your organization. And so I'll go ahead and finish up like we do. Thanks to everyone for joining us today on this episode of Alt Investing Made Easy. If you liked this episode, please like, subscribe and follow us. And we'll look forward to seeing you next time. Thanks again, everyone.

Mike Barker (33:58.561)
Our pleasure.

Roland Wiederaenders (34:21.133)
And remember, take aim with your alternative investing strategies.

Sarah Florer (34:27.709)
See you next time, everyone.